Journalists Meryem El Mandoudi (VRT NWS) and Jaafar Abdul Karim (Deutsche Welle) inspire each other
What happens when you put two passionate journalists together? Something magical emerges. You immediately sense that great shared love they have for their profession. Meryem El Mandoudi and Jaafar Abdul Karim didn’t know each other before this interview. They work for different companies, in different countries. But right from the start of their meeting, they seemed to be on the same wavelength. Both work in public broadcasting. They value objective journalism and added value for the public. And they’re both keen advocates for young people.
STATEMENT 1: Young people aren’t interested. The news will never interest them.
Jaafar: “Woah, that’s not true!”
Meryem: “Fake news!Children and young people absolutely do want to know what’s happening. And their window on the world is much bigger than mine was when I was little. I had no smartphone, no computer, no internet. Now young people have access to the entire world through their little screens. They just need help from journalists like us to guide them. I don’t judge, I clear a path through the mountain of information that’s coming at them.”
Jaafar: “Completely agree. That statement doesn’t come from anyone young. A child or teenager would never say such a thing about themselves. There’s criticism in that statement, and that’s wrong. Don’t judge someone, young or old, for who they are. What you need to do is listen, see their perspective and try to understand. Only then can you reach them with your news offering.”
Meryem: “There’s a big difference between generations. My parents sit in front of their television at 7pm sharp every day for Het journaal. That’s fine, but you can’t expect young people to do the same. You can’t force a date and time on them. That’s why for kids we’re on TikTok with Karrewiet, for teenagers there’s nws.nws.nws on Instagram, and twentysomethings have the VRT NWS Instagram page.”
Jaafar: “I’ve seen what you do. I love it!”
Meryem: “Thank you, that’s nice to hear. It’s also been a great success: on all the channels, we’re at well over 300,000 followers. These are young people looking for news and interpretation. We let them dip into the news whenever and wherever they want. And it’s presented in a way they find interesting.”
Jaafar: “There’s nothing wrong with traditional news broadcasts on television, or with those who like to watch them. Every age group has certain preferences and expectations. That’s totally fine, one’s no better than the other. Keep making Het journaal in the traditional way for the viewers who want it like that. They deserve to be served too. And certainly don’t try to rejuvenate television news, because that absolutely doesn’t work.”
Meryem: “That’s true. You need to create something completely different for children and young people, because they consume media and therefore news in a different way.”
Jaafar: “And young people don’t just want to be able to control the timing, they also want to have a say on the content. Your audience should be able to identify with what’s happening. Second, your messaging has to be authentic. Young people can sense whether you’re telling them a real story in a genuine way or you’re trying to outsmart them. They really are smart and may notice things you don’t think about. And third, deliver the news in the way they see things, from their perspective and in their language, in words and images. That’s not necessarily the way you’d do it yourself.”
Meryem: “Exactly. That’s why it’s crucial to know who you’re working for, to really know them.”
Jaafar: “Right. That’s the only way you can ask the questions that matter to them. Why do some things happen or some people behave in a certain way? Why do politicians or religions prescribe specific rules? Why can I do this and not that? That’s the constant in what I do. I ask questions, questions and questions.”
Meryem: “With Karrewiet, we target children aged from nine to 13. At one point, we noticed that they were completely uninterested in Instagram. Their teachers and parents were, but not them. They literally asked us when we were coming to TikTok. So we made the radical decision to do what they wanted: we closed the Karrewiet Instagram account and soon our TikTok channel was a huge success.”
Jaafar: “Wonderful; that’s the right mentality. It’s not about you as a journalist or what you enjoy or like. It’s about the people you work for. Know your audience. Just listen to them, it’s that simple.”
STATEMENT 2: Young people can’t distinguish between real and fake news. They believe everything they see on social media.
Meryem: “There are famous artists and influencers who have millions of followers on social media and collaborate with major brands. As a result, they have a lot of credit, rightly or wrongly. So it’s not surprising that their followers think: what that person says is true. When someone like that starts spreading false information, intentionally or not, children and young people believe that message.”
Jaafar: “That happens to adults too, though. It’s not only young people who are susceptible. So there is some truth in the statement, but it applies to all ages.”
Meryem: “Absolutely. That’s why there’s more need than ever for accurate journalism. With news services like Deutsche Welle and VRT, anyone can find fact-checked information. We also tackle fake news, show how to spot it and explain why certain things aren’t true.”
Jaafar: “Let me give you an example. I regularly hear so-called authorities claim that women are less intelligent and more emotional than men. So women are unable to make decisions like men can. There are people who really believe it and think therefore that women can’t become judges or presidents. So we say: stop, let’s talk about this. Why do you say that? If you look at science and laws, there’s nothing to back this up. A lot of women perform brilliantly in top positions.”
Meryem: “Fake news has always been around, but social media means it’s taking on unprecedented proportions. Counterbalancing this is an important task for journalists.”
Jaafar: “That’s why public broadcasters like ours are so important. It’s our USP: objective, reliable and high-quality journalism. Not driven by commercial interests.”
Meryem: “That quality label is an advantage, people know they can trust us. What’s also valuable is that we don’t tell our audience how to think. We offer correct information, back it up with the necessary evidence and examples, and explain it clearly. People can then form their own opinions. With a critical, open mind and with the required knowledge on the subject.”
Jaafar: “We also need to clarify the difference between information and opinion. If someone claims that people from the LGBTQI+ community are sick, I say: that’s an opinion, it’s not a fact. I can then present the necessary scientific evidence for that.”
STATEMENT 3: Young people get bored quickly. Their attention spans are extremely short.
Meryem: “I’m guilty ... Everything has to move quickly for me.”
Jaafar: “Guilty? But there’s nothing wrong with that, is there?"
Meryem: “No, not really.”
Jaafar: “We shouldn’t be so quick to judge. Just because you do things differently from me, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong. It’s not a competition, we shouldn’t compare. You’re different from me, things used to be different from how they are now, children and young people are different from someone older. That’s all perfectly normal, there’s nothing wrong with it. How do you consume your media, Meryem?”
Meryem: “I’m constantly connected to my phone and want to be served very quickly, any time of the day. And I love snappy videos.”
Jaafar: “That’s fine. When I was young, I never watched Arte. Now I do from time to time. The rhythm is quite slow and I enjoy that. When you’re young, you like everything to go quickly. When you get older, you like a bit more calm. That’s human, it’s how nature works. Even though you might not want to accept that. Believe me Meryem, one day you too will say: all this rushing, I just want some calm!”
Meryem: “I’m curious. But it’s right: because the media behaviour of children and young people is so different, we as journalists have to adapt our work for them.”
Jaafar: “That’s how it is. When my team make something for TikTok, I tell them to engage every sense, at every second. The image zooms in and out, my voice is constantly emphatic, there’s background music, effects coming onto the screen from all sides. That way I keep the viewer engaged and hold their attention. If I share the same post on Instagram, I take a very different approach. And that, in turn, is different from how I do it on Facebook, YouTube, in my television broadcast or when I’m a guest on the TV news. Everything has its uniqueness and value. I find it strange and sad that people sometimes don’t see and understand that.”
Meryem: “At VRT, we have a whole team dedicated to children and young people, the JONG editorial team. It employs lots of young journalists, complemented by the necessary experience. We keep that team fresh, alert and in tune with what’s going on. New people join us regularly. That’s how we get new insights. And sometimes people say: I don’t feel enough connection with the target audience, so I’m going to do something else.”
Jaafar: “Wow, that’s great! So good that you can say that yourself.”
STATEMENT 4: Young people are not engaged.
Jaafar: “I totally disagree. It’s a cliché that’s been around forever and, again, it’s one that’s clearly not coming from the perspective of young people. You can’t judge someone for thinking or behaving differently from you. That’s not how it works. If I’m 14 and my 74-year-old grandmother wants to judge me from her perspective, it won’t accomplish anything. Who I am, my outlook on life, my mentality, my interests are all completely different. And that’s absolutely fine. You have to accept young people in their individuality, otherwise you lose them. And the same absolutely applies to the media, whether it’s news or entertainment.”
Meryem: “Children and young people absolutely are engaged. They’re keen to know what’s happening in the world and ask questions. I can say that with certainty, because at Karrewiet and nws.nws.nws we have a strong relationship with our audience, they can address us directly. Community building is our greatest asset. Children and young people let us know directly whether they’re comfortable with the language and images we use, whether our topics interest them and what impact certain news has on them. They also tell us what’s worrying them, what they’re unsure of and what they want to know more about. They share things they come across online that they want more explanation about or aren’t sure if it’s real or fake. But we also ask them what series they like to watch, who their favourite influencers are and what their dreams are. We constantly engage with young people via social media and take inspiration from their comments. We also go out on the road to talk to young people, we go where they are. That’s the only way we can really get to know them. It’s a big word, but it is true: we are their servants.”
Jaafar: “Super! That’s a big benefit of social media: you can communicate both ways. It’s really fundamental that you let children and young people give feedback on what you’re making. Let them contribute and reflect on what they see and hear. And you also need young journalists. The target audience itself and young creators need to determine what’s good and what’s not right for a young audience. That’s not a job for the bosses of Deutsche Welle or VRT. By the way: it’s not only young people who should be represented in newsrooms, but the whole of society. More diversity is needed. That’s the only way to reflect reality and bring in different perspectives.”
Meryem: “I completely agree. For people from migrant backgrounds, for example, the same applies to children and young people or whoever. If you involve them fully, they feel seen, heard and understood.”
Jaafar: “Exactly! That way, by the way, you can also give young people a chance to get involved. Not everyone can express an opinion, because they don’t have a safe platform, for example. If you give young people the chance to create the news with you, they can do their bit to change the world to how they want to see it. There’s a lot of potential and energy in the young generation.”
